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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1112
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Posted - 2015.04.25 19:18:49 -
[1] - Quote
I just saw this thread... is this guy seriously saying that the alts I use for PI production (not a small amount of effort to manage in losec) should incur fatigue on my exploring main who engages in competitive PvP through explo? The phrase that springs to mind rhymes with duck cough... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1114
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Posted - 2015.04.27 02:27:24 -
[2] - Quote
I have two real problems with the idea (as above on the assumption it is serious). Many people do not PvP as they literally hate it. That's not to say that they won't do it if forced upon them in open space but that they would never choose to engage in it. This idea would be tantamount to limiting the amount of time they can engage in the aspects of the sandbox they enjoy. Players like myself would be impacted severely as I invent, haul, manufacture, occasionally mine, run explo sites and combat anoms, manage PI and market orders. I actually don't get time for PvP even if I wanted too.
Secondly this would inflict limits on those with accessibilty issues for whom PvP is practically impossible. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1116
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Posted - 2015.04.28 02:23:50 -
[3] - Quote
Teckos wrote:...lots of good points....
There is also the point that the OP actively stops PvE players enjoying the game whereas JB and JD fatigue does not stop PvP players from playing, simply makes them choose other hulls.
Any mechanic that stops a player doing what they prefer (other than player interference of course) is in my opinion a bad idea. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1117
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Posted - 2015.04.28 04:19:15 -
[4] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: There is also the point that the OP actively stops PvE players enjoying the game whereas JB and JD fatigue does not stop PvP players from playing, simply makes them choose other hulls.
"Choosing other hulls" is available for PvE players hitting the fatigue: they can grab a hauling ship and do contract hauling or buy low, haul, sell high. They can grab a Noctis and salvage what they've (and others) killed. They can grab a salvaging destroyer and loot/salvage after suicide gankers. Finally, they can grab their brain and figure out how could they use their limited farming time better. Zimmer Jones wrote:So, life is not fair, people get what they work for, casual players don't get as much as hardcore players. Sounds like eve is modeled after the real world. Your idea smacks of "no capsuleer left behind." Absolutely and totally not. Competition in real world is about performing better and not longer. No one suggests "flip burgers for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week" as a way of getting rich. They suggest to study and get complicated and well-paying jobs like doctor or engineer. Currently in EVE "being skilled" is secondary to "have lot of time". A scripted bot, "who" is dumber than the dumbest person possible is more successful in EVE than most players. EVE supposed to be a hard game and not an easy but very grindy one. Teckos Pech wrote: If 10 hours of venture income is crap...what do we call 1 hour? Absolute and utter sh*t income? How do you think a beginner would feel knowing that he has 1 hour to mine in that venture whereas I can log in and in that same hour cycle quickly through my alts/accounts and re-start my planets for PI and earn several orders of magnitude isk that he can? Indeed, and that's why newbies should learn early on to not mine in a Ventrure at all. He should find higher paying jobs from other players (mission salvager, hauler, SRP-living PvP-er) instead of getting crap income from Venture mining and L1 missions and try to compensate by "playing" for 10 hours a day.
My point is that your suggestion will actively stop players from performing their preferred activities. Whether bots can be more successful is irrelevant to whether a player chooses to perform a task or not. If you don't like afk miners I would suggest that as a PvP player you go and gank them to change their behaviour. It would be a good use of your time whilst sitting out jump fatigue timers. Jump fatigue does not stop you engaging in PvP but simply curtails excessive power projection. Your suggestion actively limits others activities.
For example I and many others I know will mine whilst at work. We are ATK and depending on who is behind us will have the window open or at least fly properly tanked procs/skiffs. This gives a continued supply of minerals to markets and puts targets in space. It's up to other players to disrupt that, not some crappy mechanic. Jump fatigue is different in this sense as there was very little (if anything) that anyone could do to interfere with a massive fleet jumping stupid distances. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1122
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Posted - 2015.04.28 15:56:14 -
[5] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:people will just buy more alts 1/10 stop being silly
Out of curiosity...what was the 1 for?... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1126
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Posted - 2015.05.02 17:56:32 -
[6] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Hopelesshobo wrote:What about the people you can't play the game every day? Should we also limit PVE activity to say 2 days a week? Read OP again. Buffer was clearly stated. The buffer should be 14x bigger than the daily regen. So if you have no fatigue, you can PvE 14 days quotas at once before being penalized. Every day you aren't playing, one quota will be subtracted, so next time you play again, you'll have several quotas available.
Jump fatigue was introduced specifically to stop power projection, it does not stop a player wntering PvP. Why then should players be locked out of PvE activities for no sensible ( game or lore wise) reason? Are our clones so feeble that they can't concentrate for as long as a 21st century human??? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1126
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Posted - 2015.05.03 14:28:50 -
[7] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:I'm all for a rest mechanic similar to WoW, perhaps affecting damage. A tired capsuleer should take some penalties. Nobody needs to play 16-23.5 hours per day, every day. A rest mechanic penalizing people who play more than 112 hours in a week (sliding window) will only harm botters and people who really should get more sleep. A tired capsuleer does take penalties. The penalties include.... -Lower risk management (I can take on 4 guys at once) -Higher chances of making a mistake (Did I just click jump to or bridge to?) -Lower reaction time (Hey guys that tornado has me....nevermind he alphad me) -Not notice something important (How did I end up in low/nulsec? I should have gotten that low/nulsec warning box to pop up) There are many more. So if anything, by encouraging people to turn off the game and get some sleep or go outside, you are encouraging people to not do as many things that will get them killed.
My funniest loss was from a 2am 'last trip' to losec...early in my time here I had minimal decent modules so used to unfit/refit different haulers for hisec and losec. One night I hopped into my nereus, leapt through to Old Man Star only to find myself pinned and being gunned down...I was so bemused as to why I couldn't see the usual multi-wcs mods on the HUD that I entirely forgot to align and got podded too! I had of course forgotten to refit the nereus in my bleary eyed bad decision making state and hadn't even noticed the complete lack of anything until it was too late... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1130
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Posted - 2015.05.07 09:05:57 -
[8] - Quote
Another point here...this would actually punish those who perform diverse activities in the game. I log in at work, run PI, run exploration, manufacture all sorts of stuff, haul my stuff around, buy and sell etc etc.Basically everything other than PvP as I don't particularly like it. Under this proposal I would actually be punished for having more diverse activities than simply missioning as each that fell into the OP definition of punishable PvE would have a cumulative affect on my allowed time on each of them.
Then to top it all off if I get home at night and find I have some time free and choose to head into lo/null for some better exploration I get slapped for having pootled around in the day providing stuff to the market and buying/selling stuff from others thus promoting them being in space doing stuff too.
Someone please link the every known language 'no' set... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1130
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Posted - 2015.05.07 09:57:41 -
[9] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Someone please link the every known language 'no' set... Ask and you shall receive (With some bold): No Nej +ä+º jo geen +++¦ he+º bir ez aª¿aª+ ne -+-¦ Dili neniu ei hindi aucun non -î-ç+¦ ßâÉßâáßâÉßâáßâÿßâí a¬òa½ïa¬ê Pa gen Ba +£+É añ¿añ¦aÑÇañé tsis mba tidak Uimh Nei püäpüäpüê Ana +º+Ö+Ö+ƒ a¦ça¦¦a¦ìa¦¦ ßPé߃ÆßPÿßP¦ßPô µùá täí 8òädïê ne a¦Üa+ìa+êa¦ía¦¦ N-ô kwete Nru añ¿añ+añ¦aÑÇ
This should be added as a sticky at the top so that it can be easily linked :D |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1131
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Posted - 2015.05.07 16:04:36 -
[10] - Quote
Felix Judge wrote:James Baboli wrote:Directly punishes newbies who everything about the game is still cool and shiny by limiting their ability to make isk.. Newbies don't do the same thing for hours on end.
I did as I mined at work, now I explore at work :D
This wouldn't just hit someone doing the same thing though, it would hit anyone doing any of the multiple things that constitute PvE in the OP. So as previously mentioned this would affect me (definitely not a bot) for simply enjoying many parts of the game in many ways at different parts of the day depending on the time and level of concentration I have available. Limiting anyone's playstyle is a bad idea. |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1132
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Posted - 2015.05.07 19:12:32 -
[11] - Quote
Felix Judge wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:[...] My point is that your suggestion will actively stop players from performing their preferred activities. Whether bots can be more successful is irrelevant to whether a player chooses to perform a task or not. [...] Bots de-value what you get from your preferred activity. And since many players choose their activities by ISK/hour (or if they think it is good money), of course the success of bots is relevant to what players do. If the bots' success that compete with you does not stop you from a certain activity, then OP's idea will stop you even less. Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: For example I and many others I know will mine whilst at work. We are ATK and depending on who is behind us will have the window open or at least fly properly tanked procs/skiffs. This gives a continued supply of minerals to markets and puts targets in space. It's up to other players to disrupt that, not some crappy mechanic. Jump fatigue is different in this sense as there was very little (if anything) that anyone could do to interfere with a massive fleet jumping stupid distances. 1.) Working OR playing. 2.) "Properly tanked procs/skiffs" - I presume in high sec - with the game window closed is afk-mining or semi-afk-mining. No wonder you are against the proposal that hinders afk-playstyles in favour of active playstyles. :) And pray your boss never finds out ("is behind you" at the wrong time), or will have no need to close that window in the future while running the game client, because it may well be on your computer at home during work hours, too.
My work means I regularly have to wait for scripts to run, builds to complete etc etc. It's just the nature of the work and I most certainly wouldn't be playing if it interfered with what I do! When I mined I could easily monitor 2 screens at once, I do it all the time with multiple running scripts and builds so mining alongside was a breeze.
My point is that I am logged in even if I'm not actively doing something. How would the servers know the difference? How would they track how long I actually played or was just following corp/friend chat? If the server could tell who was botting or not I think that would already be implemented. Any implementation of the OP punishes those who choose to have a marathon Eve run for whatever their reason and it isn't up to CCP to punish players for doing so.
Example: I'm setting up a new PI planet, I'm doing so in the 5 minute waits whilst scripts run but there are times where I leave my computer open on the PI window whilst I do more actual work (some people read news etc whilst stuff runs, I do PI). How does the server time how long I'm doing PI for? Measure the length of time the window is open for? Measure how much I move the mouse? Measure the number of clicks (Already a punishment in itself with PI...)? Too many variables and a potentially large increase in server side load. It isn't a workable idea in my opinion. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1132
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Posted - 2015.05.07 19:13:08 -
[12] - Quote
odd double post... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1137
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Posted - 2015.05.08 13:46:28 -
[13] - Quote
Felix Judge wrote:...points....
You missed a point, you should havestated you are not Gevlon again...just to be sure... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1137
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Posted - 2015.05.08 15:31:56 -
[14] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And just to reiterate again...the PLEX market...it provides a mechanism to transfer in game wealth from the 10 account/10 hour a day no lifer to the new casual player...who has a job that pays way, way more than the imputed wage of the no lifer living in his Aunt Gladys' basement. This is the very problem: currently a normal human player is more or less mandated to buy extra PLEX-es to play EVE, making the game practically pay-to-win with the bizarre twist that he isn't even paying to the developer, but he pays for the account of a no-lifer player. Why should anyone pay money to another player for the privilege of playing the game?! While I'm not trying to stop PLEX trading (as it is necessary to somehow limit RMT) and I see no problem if some moron pays $1500 to buy a titan from a PL or Snuff Box alt, I do find it a problem if ordinary players can't make ends meet, because they are outmarketed by 10 account 10 hour/day nolifers/botters.
I PLEX my account just fine and it certainly isn't from playing lots of hours per day. A 'normal' life owning player can PLEX easily once they have the player skills required. It just takes some knowledge and a bit of research. If bots are a problem then CCP need to go after the bots, not legislate player activities through mechanics. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1141
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Posted - 2015.05.09 09:43:07 -
[15] - Quote
I just play...smart would be too much effort... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1203
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Posted - 2015.06.15 11:24:51 -
[16] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And as has been pointed out a policy to hurt bots that hurts non-bots is just bad. Embarrassingly bad. James 315 came up with a good name for such people: "bot-aspirants". Someone who does a trivial, repeatable activity for several hours every day is both hurting the other players with his excess ISK and hurting himself with his lack of priorities. Both should be saved.
Well if you don't like these players doing what they enjoy I suggest the CODE path of removing their safety to do so, with anti-matter. This is a game and should not force players to carry out careers they do not wish to. If all they do is perform such 'bot-aspirant' tasks and generate ISK for themselves who cares? If they aren't using the ISK for anything else then it has no effect, if they use it to fund other activities such as PvP they provide targets. If they use the ISK for manufacturing/trade etc then they are providing a service.
The best solution for any bottable activity is to give an alternative where an active pilot will make more than an AFK one. So the comet mining idea for instance would reward an active pilot with more ISK generating products than an AFK miner would get (even with boosts).
This way the active pilots will provide content and gain better gameplay whilst the bots would simply take up the slack.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1212
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Posted - 2015.06.16 09:42:01 -
[17] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:The best solution for any bottable activity is to give an alternative where an active pilot will make more than an AFK one. So the comet mining idea for instance would reward an active pilot with more ISK generating products than an AFK miner would get (even with boosts). The problem is that bots aren't AFK. They are giving out orders to their ships constantly. They target new crosses/rocks, they dock, safe up. Anything that an EVE PvE player can do, a few lines of script can do too, maybe with a lower efficiency. It's true, that it would be great if PvE would be so complex that bots wouldn't stand a chance, and players would be needed to solve them, but that's a dream never comes. We have to live with the reality.
My point is that you don't change the game mechanisms to combat bots in ways that are detrimental to non-bots. Remember that those you consider to have no life and play EvE for a long time each day may well do so because it is their entertainment. It is their choice to do so and the game mechanics should not discriminate against them for such.
Dev effort would be better spent in determining potential bot activity and pointing GM's towards those characters with their location. They can then be interacted with in game to asses whether they are a bot or not. Botting is a bannable offense as far as I'm aware and an active player would happily respond to repeated attempts to hail them.
Irrespective of your OP I would prefer their to be more active versions of the less active style careers that would reward an active player more. An active player should always have the advantage in the game. For instance in missions where a player can AFK rat maybe improve the AI slightly so that if NPC's are being killed in droves before getting anywhere near the player ship they fly the other way until they can warp to 0 on the player instead. I'm sure there are a multitude of simple changes that could be made in many areas and I feel this would improve the game overall rather than limit some areas in an arbitrary manner. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1355
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Posted - 2015.07.07 14:34:24 -
[18] - Quote
Gevlon Goblin wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:My point is that you don't change the game mechanisms to combat bots in ways that are detrimental to non-bots. Remember that those you consider to have no life and play EvE for a long time each day may well do so because it is their entertainment. It is their choice to do so and the game mechanics should not discriminate against them My point is that I consider no-lifers not much different from bots and a normal player can't tell the difference. They are both active for very-long time, doing some repeatable activity without interacting with other players. Bots and no-lifers alike are detrimental to normal players and should be stopped.
Again with the term no-lifers. Who are you to tell someone how little or how much they can play a game? It is after all just that, a game. If they have their fun doing what they do then they are a happy customer for CCP. CCP would be better tracking and booting out bots rather than changing gameplay to limit what people can do. |
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